Note And Plans On Lisp, Racket, Scheme, Clojure and Other Buzzwords

Once again, my plan for the rest of my life is undergoing some revision.

My plan a week ago was to put 4Clojure on hold. I have tried it a few times and just wind up randomly scanning the Clojure cheat sheet for whatever function will get all the sub-problems to work. My plan was to just go through the Clojure cheat sheet and try out each and every function so I am at least a tiny bit familiar with them all.

Then I went to Austin Clojure last week. The speaker was Alex Miller who works on Clojure at Cognitect. He went over transducers. I understood it while I was there, but a week later it’s a bit fuzzy. A few things I think I remember: They do not give you any speed benefit unless you have large collections. But you should avoid them if you are using a function that returns a lazy sequence or an infinite sequence, like range.

Also: I should go through all Clojure code I have and ensure that all uses of reduce supply the “val” argument. Apparently the guys at Cognitect prefer that version.

Then someone mentioned 4Clojure. A few people mentioned that the difficulty curve shifts pretty suddenly, so I did not feel too stupid. Then Alex Miller said he never finished all the 4Clojure problems. So I thought that maybe I should learn Clojure and Lisp another way.

I know this might put off my Clojure/Lisp enlightenment, and probably delay any Clojure/Lisp employment, but I am thinking about trying Racket and going through Realm Of Racket. It is based on Scheme, and bills itself as a Scheme “with batteries included”.

Scheme is intended as a teaching language, so the standard is intentionally small. So Scheme implementations have to fill in a lot of gaps to be useful in production. Which holds back industry adoption. Racket decided to break with Scheme standards and do its own thing to be more useful.

Racket claims to be a “programmable programming language” (but that seems to be true of all Lisps). I have glanced at a few parts of Realm Of Racket, and various web pages and articles and parts of videos, and from what I gather some programmers have used Racket to implement other languages in Racket. Including some versions of Scheme.

Which brings me to the next phase of My Plan To Be The Smartest Person Ever.

After Realm Of Racket, I might go through a few other Scheme books. One I found is Simply Scheme. That is intended as a prequel to the granddaddy of them all: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs (see pages on MIT site here and here, as well as pages by Andres Raba here, here and here). Paul Graham wrote that Lisp can make you smarter. Eric Raymond wrote that it will bring you to enlightenment. Many people point to SICP in particular as broadening people’s minds and expanding their understanding (see this page on Quora, this post by Not My Uncle Bob and Why SICP Matters at Berkeley).

But wait, there is more. Daniel P. Friedman of Indiana University wrote a few books on Scheme (a few of which he co-wrote with Matthias Felleisen, one of the creators of Racket): The Little Schemer (1996), The Seasoned Schemer (1996), The Reasoned Schemer (2005) and The Little Prover (2015) (which I think also uses Scheme).

Julian Gamble went through these (and a few Common Lisp classics as well) and did the exercises in Clojure. A noble effort, but I think the best thing might be do suck it up and learn some Scheme and go through the books in Scheme. You would need to work through them in the original Scheme or Common Lisp to redo them in Clojure, so why not learn Scheme? As Chancellor Gorkon pointed out, the only way to truly understand Shakespeare is to read him in the original Klingon.

Scheme is a lot older than Clojure, so for right now there is nothing in Clojure that people can point to and say, “Read this and you will become a much better programmer”. Julian Gamble’s site is the exception, but it seems like a lot of people have tried to go through these books in Clojure, and they never finish or the sites get abandoned. is one example.

Maybe I will get through Realm Of Racket and decide to change my mind again. Who knows? A lot of this stuff has been on my vaporous to-do list for a while.

You’re welcome.

Update On Learning Clojure

I am getting back to learning Clojure. I got Carin Meir’s Living Clojure.

The last section is a ten-week learning program. When I first read that, I got excited. But then I got to that part, and I was less excited. The first part is 4Clojure problems. I have tried starting it a few times, and I keep randomly scanning the Clojure cheat sheet and just throw functions together. I don’t feel like I am learning anything.

I got stuck on problem 30. Here is the answer I tried:

(The last vector is one of the problem inputs.)

I got it to work, but I kept getting vectors, but not lists, which is what 4Clojure wanted.

I did search for some answers. There are a few github repositories with 4Clojure answers. The “provided” answer uses the “map” function. I kept trying “reduce”. “map” returns a result that is the same size as the input, while “reduce” can change the size of the collection. I thought that was the way to get the answer, since the name of the problem is “Compress a Sequence”.

I suppose I could have added something to change the result to return a list, but that just seemed way too complicated. So I caved.

2016-05-04_01.10.02 postscript: I admit I used the provided solution to problem 30. A lot of the other users whose solutions I track had more complicated solutions than the publicly available one, and they looked more like the one I was trying.

But their solutions to 31were like the “provided” solution to 30.

2016-05-04_03.52.13 postscript: I might be using some of the answer repos a lot. I got a solution for problem 33 that works in my repl fine for all of the problems in 33. But online it chokes on the third one for some reason.

I got a tip from Norm Richards to set my solution to “__”. This allows you to run the examples right in the repl. Here is my solution that works on my laptop, but not on

I seem to get a lot of solutions that will work for all but one of the problems.

You’re welcome.

2016-02-22 Update

I bought Living Clojure by Carin Meier, and I am working through the second half. It seems like a nice language and a nice book. I hope to use it professionally in the future.

I also like Groovy. As Dick Wall would say, I am all about the Groovy, man. I also made some progress on the Groovy Mail Server. I made some progress on authentication using SASL. I using SASL classes in the JDK, but I had to implement some Callback handler code myself. I had some help from Stack Overflow. In general I like Java the language, but sometimes I feel like the API designers like to make things more complex than necessary. Interfaces, extensions, listeners, factories, handlers, the knee bone instantiated the thigh bone, etc, etc, etc.

One thing I found out today is that when calling static methods on a class in the Groovy shell, you need to include the full package name for the class. I prefer the shell over the console, but I may have to switch. I wish the shell could run any Groovy code as-is. After finding out about setting interpeterMode to true in the shell, I thought the shell would run everything fine. Oh well.

I also made some small changes. I was not catching a possible exception, and the code was not closing connections. When I logged into the server it had almost maxed out.

You’re welcome.

Is the Lisp Curse Lifting?

One question about Lisp is if it is as wonderful as its advocates say, why isn’t is used more?

One hypothesis is the Lisp Curse (see here, here, here, here, here). In essence, it comes down to “Not Invented Here” on steroids. Once you get proficient with Lisp, one person can do things more quickly with Lisp than entire teams using other languages. So one result is that there are very few commonly used libraries in Lisp (Common Lisp, Scheme, etc).

You might find a library that does 80% of what you want, but its creator won’t help you, so you just make your own custom library. And now there are two libraries that do almost the same thing. Repeat this for a few decades.

I first heard about this from Neal Ford at a talk on Clojure or general functional programming either at a No Fluff Just Stuff conference or a Ruby/Rails conference. He said that Clojure might be the Lisp that gains traction because it is on the JVM, and can thus use Java libraries.

Then I found out about Quicklisp, a “library manager for Common Lisp” that lists 1,200 libraries for every major implementation of Common Lisp. (Also, see this page on the Common Lisp wiki.)

Recently, I read about Roswell, a launcher for Common Lisp. What sdkman does for the Groovy ecosystem and rvm does for Ruby, it looks like Roswell does the same for Common Lisp. It can manage multiple installations of two implementations of Common Lisp, Steel Bank Common Lisp and Clozure Common Lisp. (Now that sound has three meanings in programming. Are you saying “closure“, “Clojure”, or “Clozure”? We need some closure on this issue.)

One things that Roswell does that sdkman and rvm do not is that it runs on Windows as well as Linux and other Unix-based systems.

I am still just getting started with Clojure and Lisp, but it looks like I showed up at an interesting time.

You’re welcome.

2015-11-08 Update

I have been traveling for work, but now I am back.

I did some work on the Groovy Mail Server. I am ready to start working on sending mail. I will have to look into authentication, which will complicate things a lot.

I am thinking about going forward with a Grails 3 tutorial.

I am thinking about looking more into Common Lisp/Racket/Scheme/Clojure. I know a lot of the pragmatic programming crowd says you should learn a language every year, I am starting to question that. It seems like languages in the C/C++ family are moving more towards Lisp and Smalltalk. Why not just learn those and be done with it?

You’re welcome.

Shelving Groovy Mail Server

I am shelving the Groovy Mail Server for the time being.

I did not think it would be easy, but it is turning into a lot more work than I thought. I am also having issues with some stuff in Postgres. I want to learn Clojure, and lately I have been getting impatient to do something there. There seems to be more activity in the Clojure community, and I think the Clojure job market will hit a critical mass faster than Groovy will. I think I might start with the tutorial on the Luminus site. Besides, I am more likely to get a job making web apps than writing mail servers.

Granted, I said a few times I was done with Groovy Validators, and then later I came back and improved it.

You’re welcome.

2015-07-27 Update

I took some time off work to see family on the East Coast. Now I am back in front of my computer again.

I am still working on my Groovy email server. Just getting one RFC done is taking a long time.

I have talked about working on a Grails tutorial. It looks like there is some progress on porting the Shiro plugin to Grails 3. I will try it out and see what happens. If I make a tutorial, I think I would need to run it on a static site. I will also look into static site generators, like Grain or JBake.

After I get done (or closer to done) with the mail server (or at least RFC 5321), I will spend some time with Clojure. I found an article on programming on HuffPo (via hacker News) with a link to a page by the author that advocated functional programming (without using the word “functional”). It is looking like that might be the way to go.

You’re welcome.

A Small Bit of Clojure Enlightenment

I have started looking at Clojure. I think it can handle concurrency well, I think functional programming will become more important, and I think all roads lead to Lisp.

I started out by looking at some of the short introductions and tutorials on the Clojure subreddit.

Lisp variants actually have less punctuation than other languages, yet they can still be a bit hard to get used to.

I had a bit of enlightenment about anonymous functions. I could not see where they would be used. One of the tutorials said you would use then when you need a function that you might use only once.

Then I noticed that the tutorials seemed to use them as arguments to the “collection functions”, like map, reduce, filter, remove, split-with. Those functions take a function and a collection as arguments. I noticed that those functions were a common place to use anonymous functions.

You’re welcome.

When I Say “Groovy” or “Clojure”, I Mean “Groovy” or “Clojure”

Two languages that I am looking at these days (and would eventually like to work in) are Groovy and Clojure.

There is a site called Find Grails Jobs. Most of them are for jobs for which you would code in Groovy and/or in Grails.

But there are a few that are really Java jobs. They will mention a lot of Java technologies, and Groovy is mentioned as a “nice to have” way at the bottom. Are some firms hoping you will sneak Groovy into a Java shop? Or are they trying to pull a bit of a bait and switch? I think it might be the latter. I like Java, but I would prefer doing Groovy. If I want a Java job, I will look on a site about Java jobs.

There is no site devoted to Clojure jobs, but there is one called Functional Jobs. They have jobs for a lot of functional languages. So much for purity.

One ad said (and this is a direct quote): If you’re interested in functional languages like Scala, Swift, Erlang, Clojure, F#, Lisp, Haskell, and OCaml, then you’ll enjoy learning Flow.

First off: I tried googling a few combinations of “Flow”, “programming”, “language” and “software”. I could not find a page that appeared to be a home page for a language called “Flow”. I did find a few pages about “flow-based programming“, which I guess is like Dataflows in GPars. So I guess “Flow” is some company’s proprietary programming language.

But more to the point: If I am interested in Clojure, don’t tell me that I am interested in some other language that only exists at your company. If you feel that some obscure language is the best way to deliver your products, fine. But don’t tell me what I want. You decided to jump down the rabbit hole. You deal with it.

If you do not have what I want, then we have nothing to discuss.

You’re welcome.

Update On Grails Constraints and Clojure

I am still going through the Grails constraints and seeing if any of them are put into a database schema out of the box, or how to do them with triggers.

I have not spent as much time on it lately. It is also a bit more tedious than I thought.

I am also looking more at Clojure. I think that functional programming will become more prevalent. Plus it also handles concurrency pretty well.

I would like to use Groovy or Clojure full-time at some point. Until that happens, I can only look at one. So I am thinking about going more with Clojure for a while.

On one hand, I think the Clojure community is stronger here in Austin than the Groovy/Grails community. The Clojure meetup happens every month. Sometimes the Groovy/Grails meetup skips a month, as it did in August. The organizers don’t want to be the only ones presenting. I have presented a few times, but I don’t think I am the town favorite.

The irony is that in general I think the Groovy/Grails community overall goes about things better. They are largely copying Ruby and Rails. Sometimes when you ask some Clojure people about web frameworks, you get this answer that they don’t like frameworks, they like to pick and choose amongst different libraries. “That’s the Lisp way.” Given that Lisp has spent several decades going nowhere, maybe “the Lisp way” is not the way to go.

That said, I keep getting the feeling that is where things are going. Here is something I posted last year:

When Ken Kousen was here for the Groovy meetup, he said that he had a boss who kept saying, “Oh, we could do that in Lisp 20 years ago.” He thought it was really annoying. He said it was more annoying when he realized his boss was right.

It seems to me that over time languages are becoming more like Lisp or Smalltalk, and less like C.

I still have a few small changes to add to Groovy Validators, and I want to look a bit more at the Grails constraints. But I might get more into Clojure soon. I am on the fence about this. I have spent a lot of time on Groovy and Grails (and money going to GR8Conf), but I don’t want to commit the sunk cost fallacy.